, number one, court of law, if you want to talk about messages, court of law, that's what we all believe in, the court let roger clemens off and they basically found all that barry bonds did was obstruct justice. now, if we want to teach our kids, listen, this is what the court says, you may not like it. this is what the court of law says. and number one, you also tell them, you know what? these two guys, they weren't the only two people. if we want to talk about the word on the street, many, many, many people were doing this, the guys who were hitting, the guys who were pitching. and even despite that, these two people were the best in their position. >> let me make two points here. one, what about pete rose? >> no, because when he got into baseball, there was a huge sign in the clubhouse says "do not bet. do not bet," and he said you know what? i'm going to bet, okay? there was no sign for -- in fact, they were given the plegig the players amphetamines, charlie! they were giving them to him! they were giving them to them! >> i'm not for it, i'm just trying to get your opinion. [ laughter